Open Culture - Latest Comments in “The Wire” @ Harvard

Re: “The Wire” @ Harvard

dave10 — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:53:53 -0000

Not wanting to pile on, but Evan has made my point much more eloquently than I could have. There&#39s no doubt that assimilation was tough, and that there were tremendous barriers for each wave of immigrants -- Irish, Italian, Eastern European. We agree completely about this, and so does (seemingly) David Simon, who makes this point repeatedly throughout the various seasons of The Wire.

What&#39s happened, according to Simon, is that the institutions that once made assimilation possible have broken down to the point where crime really is the only viable option for a huge number poor young people living in inner cities. Each season of the show takes a look at different institutions that had, until quite recently, served to help provide an avenue of escape: city hall, with its patronage system; the schools; the criminal justice system; and, in a scathing final season, the mainstream media.

The result, as Simon put it in numerous interviews, is that a whole subculture became worthless and invisible. As Evan points out, there are very legitimate ways to climb out of the ghetto, and plenty of incentives (thanks to the money from drugs) to stay in.

The Wire is a remarkable show. I hope you&#39ll spend some time with it, mainly because I think you&#39ll find agreement to many of the objections you&#39re making along with an appreciation for the fact that we&#39re faced with complex, multi-layered problems (many of them of our own making) with very few solutions. There are exceptions to every rule, and dogmatic stances are avoided. The writers -- Simon, Ed Burns (former cop and teacher), and novelists Dennis Lehane, George Pelicanos, and Richard Price -- know this territory so well that they have created a testament worthy of study at Harvard.

And hey, look at us! We&#39re discussing ordinarily hot issues in a civil, intelligent, and respectful manner on a Web forum. Maybe there&#39s hope for us yet!

Thanks for sharing....

Re: “The Wire” @ Harvard

dave10 — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 20:52:52 -0000

Oops -- see below Evan&#39s post. Sorry.

Re: “The Wire” @ Harvard

Evan — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 19:11:49 -0000

It&#39s not that there is "zero opportunity." It&#39s more like, opportunity is scarce. Plus, the moral drives and motivation in the ghetto are probably not something you can properly comprehend because you are completely ignorant of their culture.

They call it "living on the margins" for a reason. The people who are classified as the margin are considered worthless to society. Their deeper cultural values are shaky so, why give them an opportunity when they&#39re almost guaranteed to fail.

At the end of the day everybody has to eat. Either you can: work like a slave at a fast food joint and get paid scratch; slang dope on the street and climb the social chain of the hood to better cars/cred/women; or you can break away from the culture and climb out of the hood only to find out that you just jumped from a big fish in a small pond to a very small fish in a huge pond.

Obviously, there&#39s a way out of the hood. It&#39s evident in the fact that most white people from the suburbs have the "I have a black friend" card up their sleeve nowadays when they&#39re hit with the "race" card. :)

There&#39s just so much room for improvement and untapped potential in these people that is being lost. Our nation&#39s culture has immense resources and opportunities available to all. Success stories across even the marginal social circles should be the norm not the exception.

Unfortunately, for the intellectual elite, their story won&#39t be written in this generation or maybe even the next (Native Son doesn&#39t count because it&#39s satire).

The fact that a TV series provides the source material for an Ivy League school proves how far removed the gated communities are detached from the real/raw side of our culture that everybody turns a blind eye to.

Re: “The Wire” @ Harvard

dave10 — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:53:53 -0000

Not wanting to pile on, but Evan has made my point much more eloquently than I could have. There's no doubt that assimilation was tough, and that there were tremendous barriers for each wave of immigrants -- Irish, Italian, Eastern European. We agree completely about this, and so does (seemingly) David Simon, who makes this point repeatedly throughout the various seasons of The Wire.

What's happened, according to Simon, is that the institutions that once made assimilation possible have broken down to the point where crime really is the only viable option for a huge number poor young people living in inner cities. Each season of the show takes a look at different institutions that had, until quite recently, served to help provide an avenue of escape: city hall, with its patronage system; the schools; the criminal justice system; and, in a scathing final season, the mainstream media.

The result, as Simon put it in numerous interviews, is that a whole subculture became worthless and invisible. As Evan points out, there are very legitimate ways to climb out of the ghetto, and plenty of incentives (thanks to the money from drugs) to stay in.

The Wire is a remarkable show. I hope you'll spend some time with it, mainly because I think you'll find agreement to many of the objections you're making along with an appreciation for the fact that we're faced with complex, multi-layered problems (many of them of our own making) with very few solutions. There are exceptions to every rule, and dogmatic stances are avoided. The writers -- Simon, Ed Burns (former cop and teacher), and novelists Dennis Lehane, George Pelicanos, and Richard Price -- know this territory so well that they have created a testament worthy of study at Harvard.

And hey, look at us! We're discussing ordinarily hot issues in a civil, intelligent, and respectful manner on a Web forum. Maybe there's hope for us yet!

Thanks for sharing....

Re: “The Wire” @ Harvard

dave10 — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 18:52:52 -0000

Oops -- see below Evan's post. Sorry.

Re: “The Wire” @ Harvard

Evan — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:11:49 -0000

It's not that there is "zero opportunity." It's more like, opportunity is scarce. Plus, the moral drives and motivation in the ghetto are probably not something you can properly comprehend because you are completely ignorant of their culture.

They call it "living on the margins" for a reason. The people who are classified as the margin are considered worthless to society. Their deeper cultural values are shaky so, why give them an opportunity when they're almost guaranteed to fail.

At the end of the day everybody has to eat. Either you can: work like a slave at a fast food joint and get paid scratch; slang dope on the street and climb the social chain of the hood to better cars/cred/women; or you can break away from the culture and climb out of the hood only to find out that you just jumped from a big fish in a small pond to a very small fish in a huge pond.

Obviously, there's a way out of the hood. It's evident in the fact that most white people from the suburbs have the "I have a black friend" card up their sleeve nowadays when they're hit with the "race" card. :)

There's just so much room for improvement and untapped potential in these people that is being lost. Our nation's culture has immense resources and opportunities available to all. Success stories across even the marginal social circles should be the norm not the exception.

Unfortunately, for the intellectual elite, their story won't be written in this generation or maybe even the next (Native Son doesn't count because it's satire).

The fact that a TV series provides the source material for an Ivy League school proves how far removed the gated communities are detached from the real/raw side of our culture that everybody turns a blind eye to.

Re: “The Wire” @ Harvard

Hanoch — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 13:39:35 -0000

The problem with your suggestion of "zero opportunity" is that it is not supported by fact. If you look at immigrant groups in the US over history up through today, you will see that nearly all started "in the wrong part of town" and "on the wrong side of the socio-economic divide". In addition to abject poverty, most of them had to deal with additional burdens of discrimination from a far more racist society than exists today and language barriers. Yet over a generation or two, these groups overwhelmingly graduated to the middle class and beyond. Thus, the notion that "the only avenues of escape" from poverty are criminal ones is patently untrue. Unfortunately, these myths are perpetuated for a number of reasons that have little or nothing to do with a real concern for the welfare of the poor.

Re: “The Wire” @ Harvard

Hanoch — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:39:35 -0000

Re: “The Wire” @ Harvard

dave10 — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 05:08:45 -0000

Hanoch -- your observation is ironic to the point that I initially thought you were being sarcastic. You have defined, unwittingly, one of the themes that David Simon so convincingly presents -- namely, that those who "work hard and act morally" often have zero opportunity to improve their "situation." If you grow up in the wrong part of town, on the wrong side of the socio-economic divide, by the time you reach junior high school you will have learned well that the only avenues of escape from the concrete hedgerows of your blighted urban neighborhoods -- to "improve your situation," as you put it in language right out Dickens -- lie with the drug suppliers, the union thugs in the shipyard, the 12-year-old drug dealers hawking dime bags on street corners, and the junkies who strip copper pipe from rat-infested slums to try and raise enough money for just one more hit of heaven courtesy of a needle and a spoon.

Seriously, have you watched The Wire?

Re: “The Wire” @ Harvard

dave10 — Thu, 05 Nov 2009 03:08:45 -0000

Seriously, have you watched The Wire?

Re: “The Wire” @ Harvard

joe — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 17:58:41 -0000

A course at Harvard on a tv show. How about one on Britney Spears, or Star Wars or.....
I&#39m sure there are courses on subjects like these but at Harvard?
Enrollment must be dropping. So the answer? Drop standards.

Re: “The Wire” @ Harvard

joe — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:58:41 -0000

A course at Harvard on a tv show. How about one on Britney Spears, or Star Wars or.....
I'm sure there are courses on subjects like these but at Harvard?
Enrollment must be dropping. So the answer? Drop standards.

Re: “The Wire” @ Harvard

Hanoch — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:14:48 -0000

"enhance our understanding of the systemic urban inequality that constrains the lives of the poor"? Is this really difficult to understand? Work hard and act morally and you&#39ll have plenty of opportunity to improve your situation. I&#39m sure nearly all of the college students who will attend this course had ancestors that did just that when they came to the US.

Re: “The Wire” @ Harvard

Hanoch — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 12:14:48 -0000

"enhance our understanding of the systemic urban inequality that constrains the lives of the poor"? Is this really difficult to understand? Work hard and act morally and you'll have plenty of opportunity to improve your situation. I'm sure nearly all of the college students who will attend this course had ancestors that did just that when they came to the US.